Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

Every four scores and seven years, a new birth of freedom. If he doesn't want the rights to life and equality, he really is in the wrong place.

Russia perhaps? China doesn't appreciate voices speaking out for violence. He might be silenced. Can't imagine that.

Four score and seven years ago the last traces of democracy died in Germany.

(07-13-2020, 07:29 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-12-2020, 09:32 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-11-2020, 03:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-10-2020, 10:20 AM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]The game is already up. Our political system clicks its heels and follows a really good President; it basically ignores that President when he goes bad. As a basic reality the President has few real powers that he cannot get without support of Congress.

Not confident that the click heels and follow part is true anymore.  The Republicans went pretty much into full obstruction mode with Obama.  These days there is not nearly enough heel clicking going on.  Too much partisanship.

Third-turning behavior characteristic of the Degeneracy. Republicans and their constituencies were still trying to live in the Third Turning and came close to succeeding in sticking us with a permanent 3T. The Right has been for little more than class privilege irrespective of the human cost for about forty years. Whether Donald Trump is grossly unfit for the task (in which case he would have a successor in the Hard Right who better knows and uses the Dictator Playbook... the first page of which says "co-opt, marginalize, or outlaw the opposition"... which Trump did not do). In that scenario we have one ineffective term of Joe Biden followed by someone with the Trump ideology but not the erratic behavior.

Here's a hope for the best -- that Donald Trump is the last stage of an era of exaggerated individualism on economics and mindlessness in public culture.

Where do you think we should be this early in the 4T? What did America do as most of old Europe collapsed went haywire? Did America jump on the bandwagon and side early or watch as Europe unraveled and waited to see the victor? This may be hard to understand or grasp but Democratic controlled America is in damn near the same position as Europe right now and America is watching and waiting to see the victor as its shoring up itself and preparing for an ugly 4T. Does America have the right to become Imperialist during times of war with imperialist nations or imperialist forces within? Yes we do. Does America have the right to counter violence with violence? Yes we do. Does America have the right to punish business's that ignore American law and impose their own law? Yes we do. Does America have the right to trash and disable Amazon vans and make it impossible for Amazon to do business outside blue areas like the liberals groups were free to do with our police vehicles and police building and the stores and shops of working people and all our statues and monuments. So, how many racist fucks that aren't white do you have on your side these days that have taken the place of the whites that America forced your race driven party to let go during the 60's? So, where are we at now. Are you clinging to 3T or are you ready for 4t like the other side?  I'm willing to hand the Democratic party to the cancel culture on a silver plate and let them do as they please with them for now.

We are twelve years into this Crisis Era, so we are much closer to its end than to its beginning. This early? I was wrong about Obama having most of what it took to redefine America. Ten years ago we found out the hard way what defines a plutocracy: he who owns the gold makes the rules. Those who had the gold funded reactionary politicians to take over the House majority while gutting the Democratic majority in the Senate; six years ago the same interests flipped the Senate, and four years ago we ended up with government of the Master Class, by the Master Class, and for the Master Class. Was that the last act of Crisis politics? 

No. Let's contrast 2020 with 2008:

generation    age-08   age-20

GI..............  84-107    96+
Silent.........  66-83     78-95
Boom.........  48-65     60-77
13th...........  27-47     39-59
Mill.............  to 26      to 38

It is not clear whether any generation younger than the Millennial generation has yet defined its upper year of birth. The Civic component of public life has gone from (largely) very old to young adult almost exclusively. The Adaptive component is has gone from old to very old. Maybe in many respects '70 is the new 50', which fits generations that, beginning with the GI generation and continuing at least to Boomers, have stayed intellectually and physically active as long as possible and extended their lifespans and influence. But even that has its limits. 80 is 80 still. The Boom Generation has almost entirely entered retirement age, and Boomers who who want to remain relevant in politics and culture now need the support of younger adults. Donald Trump had little youth appeal in 2016 and he has become even more offensive to young adults. Civic adults may not be hostile to older adults on principle, but they certainly can choose which ones can have roles in leadership. 

Now that Generation X (or the Thirteenth) is in midlife, its pragmatic qualities come to the fore. It believes in what works, and even if it is moral enough (at least those who haven't sullied themselves with extreme cynicism and anger) it seems to not like elaborate pretenses about moral grandeur. Morality can be pragmatic. Life is about the means of enjoying it, and this is the time to enjoy it to the most. It has earned the role and is beginning to wonder whether time is running out. It has the most to lose if things go badly. Let us put it this way: on opposite sides of the English Channel, someone like Air Marshal Arthur Tedder and his counterpart Hermann Goering knew that if their side would lose the war they would probably be tried as major war criminals, be convicted, and die with ropes around their necks. Likewise, neither Joseph Darnand (France's quisling) and Charles de Gaulle expected to meet bad ends if defeated. It's all-or-nothing for Reactive generations even if "all" is simply getting to see one's grandchildren reach their teens. 

The big change is of course the relative importance of the Millennial Generation. Its participation in the electorate is getting more significant... and we can expect it to start making a heavy appearance in politics as elected officials. This is the most liberal generation since the GI generation at like age. It is highly rational, and it does not accept pie-in-the-sky promises or trickle-down economics. Having often experienced hardscrabble youth (GI kids did not have life easy unless born into the economic elite) they see no Golden Age in American history. They want something better than what they have known so far, and they have good cause not to trust people who take everything available. 

There is no constituency in any generation, at any level of economic attainment, or at any position in the political spectrum (other than the tiny fascist Hard Right and the tiny Commie Hard Left) for political violence or outright theft. 

Now... can one be white and consider Donald Trump a swine? Yes.

(07-14-2020, 12:58 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-14-2020, 01:03 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see a dictator. I see an American President being hampered by a bunch of petty liberal dictators. You're right, America can't function with a bunch of petty liberal dictators hampering it and undermining its authority.  So, what do you think is going to happen to all those petty dictators of yours when the gloves come off and the country takes a necessary step backwards to what we refer to as the good Wild West? A time when liberal smack or bullshit ended with an idiot peering down the gun barrel of a skeptic who is more interested in learning the truth. Dictators don't often have honorable deaths?

Yes, you really do hate democracy and pray for an iron-gloved savior. Here's a hint: Trump is a wimp of the worst kind and fully incapable of being the leader you seem to want so desperately.

Are you speaking for yourself or speaking to me? I don't need a white knight or a liberal Democratic sugar daddy or mommy either. I'm quite capable of fending for myself as I've proven many times over the years. I hope that your not foolish enough to still think that you're speaking to a fake person who couldn't stand up to you or defeat you or kill you or accept your death or demise if needed at this point.  Have you ever met one of us who are incapable of fending for ourselves? I don't mind Democracy. I've been a participant in Democracy for a long time. You seem to hate it more than me. You don't seem to like the idea of people being allowed to vote against you and the Left or vote to keep their money or vote to have more their money be used for securing borders or the military or vote for tax cuts to stimulate or revitalize the economy or vote to change trade deals that were eliminating jobs or voting to abolish abortion or school choice and so forth.

(07-15-2020, 02:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I don't need a white knight or a liberal Democratic sugar daddy or mommy either. I'm quite capable of fending for myself as I've proven many times over the years. I hope that your not foolish enough to still think that you're speaking to a fake person who couldn't stand up to you or defeat you or kill you or accept your death or demise if needed at this point.   Have you ever met one of us who are  incapable of fending for ourselves? I don't mind Democracy. I've been a participant in Democracy  for a long time. You seem to hate it more than me. You don't seem to like the idea of people being allowed to vote against you and the Left or vote to keep their money or vote to have more  their money be used for securing borders or the military or vote for tax cuts to stimulate or revitalize the economy or vote to change trade deals that were eliminating  jobs or voting to abolish abortion or school choice and so forth.

Hmm…. In general, it is the Republican Party who has chased voter suppression and gerrymandering to maintain their power.  I don’t see you or David as being big movers and shakers in that department, but it is the establishment Republicans who put their own power over the will of the people.  This is more a pursuit of power than hate.  I wouldn't say the Republican establishment hates democracy, but they think it is a nuisance that gets in the way of their pursuit of power.

The Republicans do have a potentially violent force in being in the militias, but they have always accepted election results and seem to be threatening force only if an attempt is made to violate the Second Amendment.  The violent racist police continuing Jim Crow doctrine has attracted the Boogaloo Bois and other violent responses by the blacks.  This is a real element of the spiral of violence.  I don’t see anyone here as advocating the lawless use of violence, but some seem to endorse the racial violence of the police, generally against the American principle of valuing life and equality.  Jim Crow is an idea whose time is past, as has been made clear by the recent protests, and Republican establishment opposition has been quite clear.

Women’s ability to choose and the separation of church and state can be viewed in different ways.  Ironically, the Republicans want to impose their convictions on health care on all, and the Democrats on separation of church and state.

(07-15-2020, 02:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Are you speaking for  yourself or speaking to me? I don't need a white knight or a liberal Democratic sugar daddy or mommy either. I'm quite capable of fending for myself as I've proven many times over the years. I hope that your not foolish enough to still think that you're speaking to a fake person who couldn't stand up to you or defeat you or kill you or accept your death or demise if needed at this point.   Have you ever met one of us who are  incapable of fending for ourselves? I don't mind Democracy. I've been a participant in Democracy  for a long time. You seem to hate it more than me. You don't seem to like the idea of people being allowed to vote against you and the Left or vote to keep their money or vote to have more  their money be used for securing borders or the military or vote for tax cuts to stimulate or revitalize the economy or vote to change trade deals that were eliminating  jobs or voting to abolish abortion or school choice and so forth.

No one is an island, and that only becomes more obvious when the social structure that holds society together starts to wither or collapse outright. Do you pave your own roads, school your own children, pick-up your own trash? We only escaped living in the wilderness by working together. Feel free to return to the wilderness at any time, if you think that's better. Damn few are actually capable, so be prepared to fail.

(07-14-2020, 05:28 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]We are twelve years into this Crisis Era, so we are much closer to its end than to its beginning. This early? I was wrong about Obama having most of what it took to redefine America. Ten years ago we found out the hard way what defines a plutocracy: he who owns the gold makes the rules. Those who had the gold funded reactionary politicians to take over the House majority while gutting the Democratic majority in the Senate; six years ago the same interests flipped the Senate, and four years ago we ended up with government of the Master Class, by the Master Class, and for the Master Class. Was that the last act of Crisis politics? 

No. Let's contrast 2020 with 2008:

generation    age-08   age-20

GI..............  84-107    96+
Silent.........  66-83     78-95
Boom.........  48-65     60-77
13th...........  27-47     39-59
Mill.............  to 26      to 38

It is not clear whether any generation younger than the Millennial generation has yet defined its upper year of birth. The Civic component of public life has gone from (largely) very old to young adult almost exclusively. The Adaptive component is has gone from old to very old. Maybe in many respects '70 is the new 50', which fits generations that, beginning with the GI generation and continuing at least to Boomers, have stayed intellectually and physically active as long as possible and extended their lifespans and influence. But even that has its limits. 80 is 80 still. The Boom Generation has almost entirely entered retirement age, and Boomers who who want to remain relevant in politics and culture now need the support of younger adults. Donald Trump had little youth appeal in 2016 and he has become even more offensive to young adults. Civic adults may not be hostile to older adults on principle, but they certainly can choose which ones can have roles in leadership. 

Now that Generation X (or the Thirteenth) is in midlife, its pragmatic qualities come to the fore. It believes in what works, and even if it is moral enough (at least those who haven't sullied themselves with extreme cynicism and anger) it seems to not like elaborate pretenses about moral grandeur. Morality can be pragmatic. Life is about the means of enjoying it, and this is the time to enjoy it to the most. It has earned the role and is beginning to wonder whether time is running out. It has the most to lose if things go badly. Let us put it this way: on opposite sides of the English Channel, someone like Air Marshal Arthur Tedder and his counterpart Hermann Goering knew that if their side would lose the war they would probably be tried as major war criminals, be convicted, and die with ropes around their necks. Likewise, neither Joseph Darnand (France's quisling) and Charles de Gaulle expected to meet bad ends if defeated. It's all-or-nothing for Reactive generations even if "all" is simply getting to see one's grandchildren reach their teens. 

The big change is of course the relative importance of the Millennial Generation. Its participation in the electorate is getting more significant... and we can expect it to start making a heavy appearance in politics as elected officials. This is the most liberal generation since the GI generation at like age. It is highly rational, and it does not accept pie-in-the-sky promises or trickle-down economics. Having often experienced hardscrabble youth (GI kids did not have life easy unless born into the economic elite) they see no Golden Age in American history. They want something better than what they have known so far, and they have good cause not to trust people who take everything available. 

There is no constituency in any generation, at any level of economic attainment, or at any position in the political spectrum (other than the tiny fascist Hard Right and the tiny Commie Hard Left) for political violence or outright theft. 

Now... can one be white and consider Donald Trump a swine? Yes.

I think you're wrong/wishful thinking as usual. I think we are at the beginning of the 4t myself. I'm sorry but the O8' crash was small potatoes compared to what we are going through now and all the repercussions that follow.

(07-15-2020, 10:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I think you're wrong/wishful thinking as usual. I think we are at the beginning of the 4t myself. I'm sorry but the O8' crash was small potatoes compared to what we are going through now and all the repercussions that follow.

September 11th was a little early and there was a conservative in charge. 2008 and whatever little Obama tried to do was undone by Trump. I would agree neither was the trigger, regeneracy and leading into the crisis heart. Now, we are almost definitely in the crisis heart, though arguably we won't have a regeneracy until the federal government is implementing the new values.

But I would say the crisis problems are have always been solved, and you cannot do that by trying to pretend the problems do not exist. I know how we traditionally have had bad presidents clinging to the old values and demonstrating how they don't work any more. Buchanon, Hoover and Trump are all doing a great job of that. In a way that is necessary, to prepare the country to move on.

Still you aren't yet convinced. Between the virus and Trump, enough people will be. You are stubborn or stupid enough that you may not be among them.

(07-15-2020, 02:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-14-2020, 12:58 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-14-2020, 01:03 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I don't see a dictator. I see an American President being hampered by a bunch of petty liberal dictators. You're right, America can't function with a bunch of petty liberal dictators hampering it and undermining its authority.  So, what do you think is going to happen to all those petty dictators of yours when the gloves come off and the country takes a necessary step backwards to what we refer to as the good Wild West? A time when liberal smack or bullshit ended with an idiot peering down the gun barrel of a skeptic who is more interested in learning the truth. Dictators don't often have honorable deaths?

Yes, you really do hate democracy and pray for an iron-gloved savior. Here's a hint: Trump is a wimp of the worst kind and fully incapable of being the leader you seem to want so desperately.

Are you speaking for  yourself or speaking to me? I don't need a white knight or a liberal Democratic sugar daddy or mommy either. I'm quite capable of fending for myself as I've proven many times over the years. I hope that your not foolish enough to still think that you're speaking to a fake person who couldn't stand up to you or defeat you or kill you or accept your death or demise if needed at this point.   Have you ever met one of us who are  incapable of fending for ourselves? I don't mind Democracy. I've been a participant in Democracy  for a long time. You seem to hate it more than me. You don't seem to like the idea of people being allowed to vote against you and the Left or vote to keep their money or vote to have more  their money be used for securing borders or the military or vote for tax cuts to stimulate or revitalize the economy or vote to change trade deals that were eliminating  jobs or voting to abolish abortion or school choice and so forth.

The best top leaders of a country either get monumental sacrifices on behalf of some high principle to save something noble and sustainable -- think at the extreme of Lincoln, Juarez, Gandhi, FDR, Churchill, de Gaulle, or Mannerheim who are excellent people in charge in extraordinary circumstances -- or those who in more normal times encourage people to do their best, getting out of the way except to clamp down on bad behavior that mucks things up. In normal-to-somewhat difficult times that could be a Theodore Roosevelt, a JFK, or an Obama as President of the United States. Maybe there is a significant reform and perhaps a crusade against corruption or extremism... or an effort to reach for the stars. 

Ideally we elect people better than ourselves, for we are far from perfect... and to succeed in a largely market economy we must accept narrow roles in life that limit what we can do and even know. One can do much good as a nurse, a letter-carrier, a diesel mechanic, a K-12 teacher, or an accountant -- but I doubt that we would want someone from one of those career paths as President. A market economy is no better than its ability to get people to take specialized roles and do well in them.  Plato figured that out over two millennia ago, presaging Adam Smith about a quarter-millennium ago. 

Fending for oneself in the backwoods is the best choice for many people... but such is not a rewarding life intellectually or economically. Success depends upon specialization in a market economy that honestly rewards work well done more effectively than it rewards people for having the right birth or connections -- or outright force. Speak for yourself about fending for yourself; you would not fare as well as "Jed Clampett" as a "poor mountaineer, barely kept his family fed". Nobody does. You are far better off specializing as an HVAC installer and repairman. 

From an economic standpoint, I envy your career choice. You made a good one. It may be luck,  but in a good system much that people do well looks like luck. This said, I do not want your ideology allowing others to lord it over me. You have political blinders, and you fail to recognize that although taxes cut into your potential for sybaritic indulgence, what the taxes support make your economic activity possible. 

Let's start with law enforcement. Someone pays you in cash, and before you get to the bank someone pulls a gun on you and tells you "your money or your life". Bye, bye cash -- or risk death or crippling injury by gunshot wounds. Cash is the life-blood of your business. So what keeps people from mugging you? A society that creates the impression that whatever one does, one must not be a criminal. If one does not learn that from family and schooling, then one needs fear the police and courts of law. If the system is primitive enough it might hang armed robbers. If it is more sophisticated it makes examples of them. Twenty-five years on the State Prison Farm? Who wants that? Maybe a few years of poverty while working at a fast-food place or working in a sweat-shop factory isn't so bad after all.

OK, the courts of law. Ideally you don't need them, but someone pays games with you, saying that he doesn't have cash but will pay you on an invoice, which is the norm in commerce. Paying people for debts owed is the norm. Some people just don't. So what do you do? You sue them for non-payment. That takes a court of law. Courts enforcing contracts, including promises to pay. Know well that you would not stay in business if your suppliers did not trust you to pay them. 

OK. Roads. If you can't get where you meed to go, then you can't do your job there. If the roads are bad enough, then you will find the pot-holes will mess up your tires, mufflers, and shock absorbers. The repairs would be costly and frequent. Because we do not have self-driving vehicles yet we need to have some traffic-law enforcement so that people drive at reasonable speeds, yield right of way, and look out for vulnerable people. The state trooper with a radar gun on I-35 or I-94 just out of the Twin Cities might catch someone driving 90 or higher... and it may amaze you that a quarter of all speeders are drunk. Drunk and driving too fast? Talk about a menace!  

Schools. Most likely you can thank some K-12 teacher for being able to read a technical manual, a road map, and a contract and that you are able to write orders and requisitions. You are able to read the checks that you sign. You got the preparation for technical school and have some idea of how the social order works. Maybe you did fall asleep in civics class because it was dull and you didn't recognize its importance. Too bad! You missed something important as your posts show. 

Recognize also that many people attended land-grant colleges at which they learned mechanical engineering that allows people to design HVAC machines that you work on. People often get their legal education in such places, so that may allow us to have the lawyers and judges who enforce contracts necessary for keeping money flowing in ways that allow you to function as a businessman.   

Obviously the vote is no guarantee that the common man will use it wisely. Heck, there is no guarantee that someone will use his money wisely! It is easy for many of us to fall for some marketing ploy, whether it is a play for our primitive drives (as Al "Married with Children" Bundy calls it, 'the nudie bar'), gratuitous display of success in buying luxuries, or perhaps the illusion that one is an astute manager of assets. OK, our economic system depends upon people making unwise decisions and not looking at something that we buy as either a bare necessity of existence or only for what we can get out of it once we are through with it. OK, spending money on listening to a concert of Mozart's forty-first symphony and Brahms' Second Piano Concerto... or getting a box set of the fifteen string quartets of Dmitri Shostakovich isn't 100% rational, but nobody -- not even someone on the autistic spectrum -- can live a fully-rational life. 

If it takes a junket to the strip club to keep you from having a Valium-and-vodka cocktail, then by all means go to the strip club and stuff dollar bills into the cleavage of the bar-maids.  

...as for trade deals -- some people gave us a very raw deal that looked good at the time. You have probably seen one of my favorite videos explaining how that works: cheap imports give us the illusion that we are doing well until we lose the manufacturing jobs and end up having to work for "Big Box Mart" (a composite of Wal-Mart, K-Mart, and Target) for a pittance, having sold out our dreams for a house full of questionable merchandise. This said, the Chinese could just as easily be making AK-47 machine guns and Stinger missiles that they use in aggression to get captive markets and bleed assets of conquered countries. Pick your poison. 

I am tempted to believe that we are at the end of the era in which manufacturing more stuff will itself create more prosperity and happiness. I have more formal education than you do in economics and more informal education (through reading) in philosophy and psychology. (I should have been a philosophy major and psychology minor in college ... or vice-versa -- but few people know that at 18 or so). It might have been good preparation for law school. I'd probably be an ambulance-chasing attorney (drive drunk, hit a motorcyclist, and pay up!) or some liberal politician in a Blue State... maybe yours. 

President? How could I do worse than Trump? First of all I know enough to respect expert knowledge to not contradict it because a contradiction of such knowledge is convenient at the moment. At this point... you can imagine me treating COVID-19 as an enemy on par with at least Osama bin Laden, if not Hitler or Tojo. 

Knowing that leadership relates heavily to communicating needful messages as simply and clearly as possible but also as completely as necessary, you can just imagine how I would tell people to live with the threat of COVID-19:

My fellow Americans. We face a dangerous enemy, no matter what we look like, where our ancestors came from, how we pray or do not pray, no matter what our economic condition, and no matter what part of this nation in which we live. We are at war with an enemy as cruel and effective as any enemy that we have ever faced  in our history, but an enemy with no human characteristics. It is a virus, and you have every right to hate that virus. 

We have become complacent about respiratory diseases, as they seem to hit poor people in poor countries hard and usually leave us alone. This one strikes people who seem safe. It has killed the mayor of a large city in China. It has killed an Iranian general. It has killed an Italian judge. Those people lived well until this virus took them down. We are all vulnerable. 

Religious and business leaders have already taken steps that they see necessary to thwart this virus. If the Catholic Church can close its churches to prevent the spread of this virus, then we can do so. If professional hockey and basketball leagues can shut down seasons because they are more scared of the loss of players, coaches, and fans due to this disease than of profits from ticket sales and television revenue, then we receive a message that we must all heed. 

Stay home; there really is no place to go outside of your community. Stay clean; soap is a mild chemical to you but it has been proved deadly to the virus. Work at home if possible.  If you must go out to meet your needs, then wear masks or scarves that cover your mouth and nose. But just because you must stay at home, you will need to stay connected and find meaning in life. This is a good time to listen to great music, to read great books, to watch fine movies, and to do a hobby. If you can paint, sculpt, write, or compose, then do so.    Stay home -- but stay connected. Stay clean. Wear a mask when out in public. Avoid person-to-person contact with vulnerable people, but keep in touch by phone and the Web. 

And, yes, I would be delivering this message through a mask. I might even sing to show that one can sing through the mask.

(07-15-2020, 03:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-15-2020, 02:32 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I don't need a white knight or a liberal Democratic sugar daddy or mommy either. I'm quite capable of fending for myself as I've proven many times over the years. I hope that your not foolish enough to still think that you're speaking to a fake person who couldn't stand up to you or defeat you or kill you or accept your death or demise if needed at this point.   Have you ever met one of us who are  incapable of fending for ourselves? I don't mind Democracy. I've been a participant in Democracy  for a long time. You seem to hate it more than me. You don't seem to like the idea of people being allowed to vote against you and the Left or vote to keep their money or vote to have more  their money be used for securing borders or the military or vote for tax cuts to stimulate or revitalize the economy or vote to change trade deals that were eliminating  jobs or voting to abolish abortion or school choice and so forth.

Hmm…. In general, it is the Republican Party who has chased voter suppression and gerrymandering to maintain their power.  I don’t see you or David as being big movers and shakers in that department, but it is the establishment Republicans who put their own power over the will of the people.  This is more a pursuit of power than hate.  I wouldn't say the Republican establishment hates democracy, but they think it is a nuisance that gets in the way of their pursuit of power.

The Republicans do have a potentially violent force in being in the militias, but they have always accepted election results and seem to be threatening force only if an attempt is made to violate the Second Amendment.  The violent racist police continuing Jim Crow doctrine has attracted the Boogaloo Bois and other violent responses by the blacks.  This is a real element of the spiral of violence.  I don’t see anyone here as advocating the lawless use of violence, but some seem to endorse the racial violence of the police, generally against the American principle of valuing life and equality.  Jim Crow is an idea whose time is past, as has been made clear by the recent protests, and Republican establishment opposition has been quite clear.

Women’s ability to choose and the separation of church and state can be viewed in different ways.  Ironically, the Republicans want to impose their convictions on health care on all, and the Democrats on separation of church and state.

Dude, the systemic racism ploy has little to no face value these days. The racist police force ploy has little to no face value either these days. We see to many minority faces wearing police uniforms and government positions and higher office for either them to be viewed as true these days. The mayor of Chicago is black. The mayor of St Paul is black. The police chief of Minneapolis is black. The Minneapolis police force has people of all races working for it these days. Hint, two of the four cops involved in the George Floyd incident were minority police officers. The last President was black for Christ sake's. Personally speaking, I hope you find yourself needing a cop and not having one available because what I've seen coming from you tells us that you don't value or appreciate them or deserve to have them when you need them these days. You and your politics are doing/causing a lot of damage right now that you and others don't seem to realize or care much about these days. So, how does an American take down/out/level  a self absorbed, a self serving partisan liberal prick or cunt without misbehaving or upsetting someone or getting into trouble with liberal moderators or sensors these days? 

Yep. Jim Crow ended almost 60 years but you're still acting like it's alive and well and still going on strong these days. You are also still denying that Marxism is more active and more alive and a much greater influence and more of a threat to America and the American way of life than the remnants of the bygone era of Jim Crow. Why does the city of Chicago have a clueless left wing political activist or black sugar mommy for its mayor these days?  Liberal sugar mommy's only know how to buy votes and please liberal constituents with government funding and other free stuff associated with government funding and going along with whatever liberal interest groups want, believes the country must  focus on and address like climate change and so forth.

the country must focus on and address... climate change and so forth.

(07-15-2020, 12:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-15-2020, 03:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm…. In general, it is the Republican Party who has chased voter suppression and gerrymandering to maintain their power.  I don’t see you or David as being big movers and shakers in that department, but it is the establishment Republicans who put their own power over the will of the people.  This is more a pursuit of power than hate.  I wouldn't say the Republican establishment hates democracy, but they think it is a nuisance that gets in the way of their pursuit of power.

The Republicans do have a potentially violent force in being in the militias, but they have always accepted election results and seem to be threatening force only if an attempt is made to violate the Second Amendment.  The violent racist police continuing Jim Crow doctrine has attracted the Boogaloo Bois and other violent responses by the blacks.  This is a real element of the spiral of violence.  I don’t see anyone here as advocating the lawless use of violence, but some seem to endorse the racial violence of the police, generally against the American principle of valuing life and equality.  Jim Crow is an idea whose time is past, as has been made clear by the recent protests, and Republican establishment opposition has been quite clear.

Women’s ability to choose and the separation of church and state can be viewed in different ways.  Ironically, the Republicans want to impose their convictions on health care on all, and the Democrats on separation of church and state.

Dude, the systemic racism ploy has little to no face value these days. The racist police force ploy has little to no face value either these days.

George Floyd is a counter-example to you.

Quote:We see too many minority faces wearing police uniforms and government positions and higher office for either them to be viewed as true these days. The mayor of Chicago is black. The mayor of St Paul is black. The police chief of Minneapolis is black. The Minneapolis police force has people of all races working for it these days. Hint, two of the four cops involved in the George Floyd incident were minority police officers.

One of those is an Asian-American, and some of the worst anti-black racism I have ever heard comes from Asian-Americans, especially Koreans. I don't know what that is... the Koreans often have near-white skins? OK, I'm white (German, English, Swiss, Welsh, Scots-Irish)... my skin color would fit in well in Korea. Much else wouldn't.  

Quote:The last President was black for Christ sake's.

...and the current President has undone all the good that a very good President has done except for resolute support for Obergfell v. Hodges. Even the Obama recovery is at severe risk under the bumbling of Donald Trump. But Trump is a businessman?

Quote:Personally speaking, I hope you find yourself needing a cop and not having one available because what I've seen coming from you tells us that you don't value or appreciate them or deserve to have them when you need them these days. You and your politics  are doing/causing  a lot of damage right now that you and others don't seem to realize or care much about these days. So, how does an American take down/out/level  a self absorbed, a self serving partisan liberal prick or (profanity excised) without misbehaving or upsetting someone or getting into trouble with liberal moderators or sensors these days? 

I can't speak for Bob on that, but in my experience the cops don't ask the politics about a batterer or his spouse in a domestic disturbance. That I voted for the current sheriff won't matter if I should drive drunk (not that I will). There is no partisan relationship to overall support for the police when they do the job right. Nobody has any justification for supporting police brutality.

Quote:Yep. Jim Crow ended almost 60 years but you're still acting like it's alive and well and still going on strong these days.

The only advantage that I can see in being identifiably black (including 'biracial') is sex... if a man. There are lots of good black women out there that one can get away with dating more easily if one is black than if one is white because of social stigma. On the other side, there are subcultures of white women who want black men and... the less said, the better. I have no desire to spread any ethnic stereotypes.  

Quote:You are also still denying that Marxism is more active and more alive and a much greater influence and more of a threat to America and the American way of life than the remnants of the bygone era of Jim Crow.

There still is a Communist Party of the United States of America, and it seems to have moderated many of its stands. (You may believe or reject its claims to such). But note well that the difference between some of our reactionaries such as the John Birch Society (yes, it still exists, and it is as crazy as ever) is that the ultra-reactionaries endorse the inequality, hierarchy, and exploitation that Marxists see indelibly wrong in capitalism.  Most people who believe in capitalism to any extent want to make capitalism more human... and considering what most of us think of capitalism (it's good for making things, but not adequate for social justice) most of those you consider on the Left would like a social-market system or at least Capitalism with a Human Face as an alternative to the plutocracy that we now endure.   

Quote:Why does the city of Chicago have a clueless left wing political activist or black sugar mommy for its mayor these days?  Liberal sugar mommy's only know how to buy votes and please liberal constituents with government funding and other free stuff associated with government funding and going along with whatever liberal interest groups want, believes the country must  focus on and address like climate change and so forth.

So what does the Hard Right have to offer? Work harder, work longer, for less, and pay monopolized prices and abandon all dreams of any economic security so that you can have pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die? 

I get food aid related to my disability, and I know exactly where the money goes. Most of it ends up at Meijer, Wal*Mart, or a bit less often Kroger, Aldi, or Spartan-Nash.  What I get as disability goes to my brother to partially offset living costs, an auto insurance company, Discover (an old credit-card bill that I have found hard to shake), or gas stations. Right back into the US economy.

I( did get the stimulus check, but it looks as it is going to end up paying medical bills that Medicaid botched.

Poverty in the most materialist, plutocratic society on Earth is miserable. Let's put it this way -- if the GOP wins the upcoming election I might consider a fatal heart attack or stroke a blessing. I don't expect life to be easy, but I certainly don't believe that we need a grim, dreary, joyless world just to ensure that a small and entrenched elite get everything that it wants irrespective of the human cost. Still, in a plutocracy -- he who owns the gold makes the rules. Just ask the remaining Koch brother.

(07-15-2020, 11:25 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-15-2020, 10:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I think you're wrong/wishful thinking as usual. I think we are at the beginning of the 4t myself. I'm sorry but the O8' crash was small potatoes compared to what we are going through now and all the repercussions that follow.

September 11th was a little early and there was a conservative in charge.  2008 and whatever little Obama tried to do was undone by Trump.  I would agree neither was the trigger, regeneracy and leading into the crisis heart.  Now, we are almost definitely in the crisis heart, though arguably we won't have a regeneracy until the federal government is implementing the new values.

But I would say the crisis problems are have always been solved, and you cannot do that by trying to pretend the problems do not exist.  I know how we traditionally have had bad presidents clinging to the old values and demonstrating how they don't work any more.  Buchanon, Hoover and Trump are all doing a great job of that.  In a way that is necessary, to prepare the country to move on.

Still you aren't yet convinced.  Between the virus and Trump, enough people will be.  You are stubborn or stupid enough that you may not be among them.

Well, the blue side is busy implementing new values and clinging to old values right now while half the country ( the half of the country that's already set on keeping the old values) is watching and wondering how its going to play out right now. As I recall, the Republican party ended slavery and Jim Crow and it was the Democratic party that fought to keep them both alive.

(07-15-2020, 01:45 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-15-2020, 12:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-15-2020, 03:28 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]Hmm…. In general, it is the Republican Party who has chased voter suppression and gerrymandering to maintain their power.  I don’t see you or David as being big movers and shakers in that department, but it is the establishment Republicans who put their own power over the will of the people.  This is more a pursuit of power than hate.  I wouldn't say the Republican establishment hates democracy, but they think it is a nuisance that gets in the way of their pursuit of power.

The Republicans do have a potentially violent force in being in the militias, but they have always accepted election results and seem to be threatening force only if an attempt is made to violate the Second Amendment.  The violent racist police continuing Jim Crow doctrine has attracted the Boogaloo Bois and other violent responses by the blacks.  This is a real element of the spiral of violence.  I don’t see anyone here as advocating the lawless use of violence, but some seem to endorse the racial violence of the police, generally against the American principle of valuing life and equality.  Jim Crow is an idea whose time is past, as has been made clear by the recent protests, and Republican establishment opposition has been quite clear.

Women’s ability to choose and the separation of church and state can be viewed in different ways.  Ironically, the Republicans want to impose their convictions on health care on all, and the Democrats on separation of church and state.

Dude, the systemic racism ploy has little to no face value these days. The racist police force ploy has little to no face value either these days.

George Floyd is a counter-example to you.

Quote:We see too many minority faces wearing police uniforms and government positions and higher office for either them to be viewed as true these days. The mayor of Chicago is black. The mayor of St Paul is black. The police chief of Minneapolis is black. The Minneapolis police force has people of all races working for it these days. Hint, two of the four cops involved in the George Floyd incident were minority police officers.

One of those is an Asian-American, and some of the worst anti-black racism I have ever heard comes from Asian-Americans, especially Koreans. I don't know what that is... the Koreans often have near-white skins? OK, I'm white (German, English, Swiss, Welsh, Scots-Irish)... my skin color would fit in well in Korea. Much else wouldn't.  

Quote:The last President was black for Christ sake's.

...and the current President has undone all the good that a very good President has done except for resolute support for Obergfell v. Hodges. Even the Obama recovery is at severe risk under the bumbling of Donald Trump. But Trump is a businessman?

Quote:Personally speaking, I hope you find yourself needing a cop and not having one available because what I've seen coming from you tells us that you don't value or appreciate them or deserve to have them when you need them these days. You and your politics  are doing/causing  a lot of damage right now that you and others don't seem to realize or care much about these days. So, how does an American take down/out/level  a self absorbed, a self serving partisan liberal prick or (profanity excised) without misbehaving or upsetting someone or getting into trouble with liberal moderators or sensors these days? 

I can't speak for Bob on that, but in my experience the cops don't ask the politics about a batterer or his spouse in a domestic disturbance. That I voted for the current sheriff won't matter if I should drive drunk (not that I will). There is no partisan relationship to overall support for the police when they do the job right. Nobody has any justification for supporting police brutality.

Quote:Yep. Jim Crow ended almost 60 years but you're still acting like it's alive and well and still going on strong these days.

The only advantage that I can see in being identifiably black (including 'biracial') is sex... if a man. There are lots of good black women out there that one can get away with dating more easily if one is black than if one is white because of social stigma. On the other side, there are subcultures of white women who want black men and... the less said, the better. I have no desire to spread any ethnic stereotypes.  

Quote:You are also still denying that Marxism is more active and more alive and a much greater influence and more of a threat to America and the American way of life than the remnants of the bygone era of Jim Crow.

There still is a Communist Party of the United States of America, and it seems to have moderated many of its stands. (You may believe or reject its claims to such). But note well that the difference between some of our reactionaries such as the John Birch Society (yes, it still exists, and it is as crazy as ever) is that the ultra-reactionaries endorse the inequality, hierarchy, and exploitation that Marxists see indelibly wrong in capitalism.  Most people who believe in capitalism to any extent want to make capitalism more human... and considering what most of us think of capitalism (it's good for making things, but not adequate for social justice) most of those you consider on the Left would like a social-market system or at least Capitalism with a Human Face as an alternative to the plutocracy that we now endure.   

Quote:Why does the city of Chicago have a clueless left wing political activist or black sugar mommy for its mayor these days?  Liberal sugar mommy's only know how to buy votes and please liberal constituents with government funding and other free stuff associated with government funding and going along with whatever liberal interest groups want, believes the country must  focus on and address like climate change and so forth.

So what does the Hard Right have to offer? Work harder, work longer, for less, and pay monopolized prices and abandon all dreams of any economic security so that you can have pie-in-the-sky-when-you-die? 

I get food aid related to my disability, and I know exactly where the money goes. Most of it ends up at Meijer, Wal*Mart, or a bit less often Kroger, Aldi, or Spartan-Nash.  What I get as disability goes to my brother to partially offset living costs, an auto insurance company, Discover (an old credit-card bill that I have found hard to shake), or gas stations. Right back into the US economy.

I( did get the stimulus check, but it looks as it is going to end up paying medical bills that Medicaid botched.

Poverty in the most materialist, plutocratic society on Earth is miserable. Let's put it this way -- if the GOP wins the upcoming election I might consider a fatal heart attack or stroke a blessing. I don't expect life to be easy, but I certainly don't believe that we need a grim, dreary, joyless world just to ensure that a small and entrenched elite get everything that it wants irrespective of the human cost. Still, in a plutocracy -- he who owns the gold makes the rules. Just ask the remaining Koch brother.

PB, you're different, you have a medical disability that limits/restricts your abilities and choices for work at this point.

(07-15-2020, 02:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Well, the blue side is busy implementing new values and clinging to old values right now while half the country ( the half of the country that's already set on keeping the old values) is watching and wondering how its going to play out right now. As I recall, the Republican party ended slavery and Jim Crow and it was the Democratic party that fought to keep them both alive.

Honoring the S&H theory, I don’t have to wonder about how it is going to turn out.  The new values have prevailed during the heart of the crisis, and the old rejected with emphasis.  Judging by how the virus behaves and the people have supported equality against the violent racist cops, there is nothing I see that suggest it will be different this time.

Again, before the awakening both parties had conservative and progressive wings, but identified with the old Civil War alignments.  After LBJ and Nixon, that shifted, with the Democrats going more fully progressive and the Republicans picking up the racist element.  The parties are not what they were at the time of Lincoln.  If you don’t know your history, you come up with all sorts of weird ideas.

(07-15-2020, 02:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-15-2020, 11:25 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-15-2020, 10:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I think you're wrong/wishful thinking as usual. I think we are at the beginning of the 4t myself. I'm sorry but the O8' crash was small potatoes compared to what we are going through now and all the repercussions that follow.

September 11th was a little early and there was a conservative in charge.  2008 and whatever little Obama tried to do was undone by Trump.  I would agree neither was the trigger, regeneracy and leading into the crisis heart.  Now, we are almost definitely in the crisis heart, though arguably we won't have a regeneracy until the federal government is implementing the new values.

But I would say the crisis problems are have always been solved, and you cannot do that by trying to pretend the problems do not exist.  I know how we traditionally have had bad presidents clinging to the old values and demonstrating how they don't work any more.  Buchanon, Hoover and Trump are all doing a great job of that.  In a way that is necessary, to prepare the country to move on.

Still you aren't yet convinced.  Between the virus and Trump, enough people will be.  You are stubborn or stupid enough that you may not be among them.

Well, the blue side is busy implementing new values and clinging to old values right now while half the country ( the half of the country that's already set on keeping the old values) is watching and wondering how its going to play out right now. As I recall, the Republican party ended slavery and Jim Crow and it was the Democratic party that fought to keep them both alive.

The party roles have switched 180 degrees on this, even though right-wingers keep trying to make this irrelevant point.

(07-15-2020, 12:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I hope you find yourself needing a cop and not having one available because what I've seen coming from you tells us that you don't value or appreciate them or deserve to have them when you need them these days. You and your politics are doing/causing  a lot of damage right now that you and others don't seem to realize or care much about these days.

You don't realize that your extreme right-wing rants don't get much of an audience among a predominantly rational, moderate-to-liberal group of S&H fans here. I don't know why you don't deal with these issues in a similar way, even if not in a liberal way.

Berkeley city council passed a policy of reducing police funding by 50%, the first city to do so. But this is not final. The city will monitor how things are going, and exactly how much funding to shift. What blue cities are starting to realize is that shifting the funds could free up the cops that are left to do what their real job is, to deal with more-violent crime, whereas now not enough funds have been used for social workers and others who can resolve non-violent situations for which police are not trained by which they are used for now in absence of funding to social services.

I think Seattle is considering something similar, and probably Minneapolis.

But it suits your purpose to distort the common sense steps which blue side is taking in order arouse fear in the voters with law and order rhetoric.

https://abc7news.com/society/berkeley-se...5/6319164/

BERKELEY, Calif. (KGO) -- Responding to calls to defund police, the City of Berkeley is moving ahead with a plan that could dramatically cut funding to its force and shift many of the department's traditional responsibilities to non-sworn traffic and social workers.

RELATED: Here's what you need to know about defunding the police

The words "Defund BPD" are painted on the sidewalk near police headquarters. It's a message heard loud and clear by the Berkeley City Council, now moving ahead with an aggressive goal of cutting police funding by 50% next year.

In an early morning vote, the council approved a number of reforms and to dramatically cut the department's $70 million budget.

"What we did approve last night were landmark public safety reforms," explained Mayor Jesse Arreguin. "To begin a year-long process to re-imagine public safety and look at shifting responsibilities out of police department to non-sworn positions"

RELATED: Calls renewed to defund San Jose police amid investigation into alleged racist Facebook posts

Sworn officers would no longer make the majority of traffic stops, instead leaving those up to a separate traffic enforcement contingent.

And much of the work now done by police around other community issues would go to social workers.

"Most police calls are for mental health issues. We got a lot of calls around homelessness that don't involve any threats or allegations of violence," said Berkeley City Councilmember Sophie Hahn. "Law enforcement is not the only way that we get people to understand the rules and abide by them."
But some worry, reducing Berkeley's number of sworn officers could put citizens in jeopardy and they worry an unarmed traffic enforcement person may not be equipped to handle a situation, if it turns violent.

RELATED: https://abc7news.com/education/opd-outli...-/6242514/Oakland police outline reform plan, marchers call on Oakland mayor to defund police[/url]

A spokesman says the Berkeley Police Department will take a wait and see approach.

"It's too soon to determine how these referrals will inform how we provide police services to the community," said BPD Public Information Officer Byron White in a written statement. "The department will continue its commitment to public safety and evaluate calls for service that perhaps another city service could handle safely instead."

Mayor Arreguin believes shifting responses to non-violent incidents away from sworn officers might actually free them up, to address more serious crimes.

The council directed staff to study existing data on police stops and emergency calls and to come up with recommendations for how to staff up departments, like social services, outside of the police department.

(07-15-2020, 12:54 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Yep. Jim Crow ended almost 60 years but you're still acting like it's alive and well and still going on strong these days. You are also still denying that Marxism is more active and more alive and a much greater influence and more of a threat to America and the American way of life than the remnants of the bygone era of Jim Crow. Why does the city of Chicago have a clueless left wing political activist or black sugar mommy for its mayor these days?  Liberal sugar mommy's only know how to buy votes and please liberal constituents with government funding and other free stuff associated with government funding and going along with whatever liberal interest groups want, believes the country must  focus on and address like climate change and so forth.

There are a bunch of bad cops who think they can literally get away with murder.  This may not strictly be called Jim Crow, but any time an arm of the government adheres to prejudice and violence and rejects treating the people they are supposed to serve well, you have a problem.  Just because you do not expect the cops to kill yourself, your family, your friends, you do not think it is a problem?  Many do.  If you do not have enough empathy to perceive the problem, that is your lack.

Many folks have objected to the elites and division of wealth under different names.  It is widely accepted as a problem.  Marxism is different in that it proposes the problem cannot be solved peacefully, but that a violent revolution is necessary.  This approach has been rejected, mostly due to the policies of Lenin, Stalin and Mao.  It just works poorly.  Your ideological blindness prevents you from seeing this rejection.  You assume this motivation as a straw man to prevent having to address the real motivation of liberals.

These days, the Boogaloo Bois are the primary organization that advocates the need for violence, for a new revolution or civil war.  Even they carefully avoid Marxist language as it makes for poor public relations.  Sill, the problems Marx so well described are real.  I don’t care whether you call them the Robber Barons, the Military Industrial Complex, the elites, the one percent, or whatever, there are many ways to note that the extreme division of wealth is a problem.

You yourself are obsessed with and advocate violence.  Still, it is violence in favor of the old values.  It is hard to call it Marxism if you are advocating the status quo.  Still, it is not really the status quo.  You do not go on racist rants or advocate the continued division of wealth.  Like the Tea Party, you are generally against the elitist element.  Your ideological blindness prevents you from seeing the real problems with the racist violent police.  This leaves you as an advocate of small government and law and order.  In the first, I would say that the unraveling took us well past the point of diminishing return.  In the latter, I could approve if you could keep law and order while removing the violent racism.

(07-15-2020, 02:31 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-15-2020, 11:25 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(07-15-2020, 10:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I think you're wrong/wishful thinking as usual. I think we are at the beginning of the 4t myself. I'm sorry but the O8' crash was small potatoes compared to what we are going through now and all the repercussions that follow.

September 11th was a little early and there was a conservative in charge.  2008 and whatever little Obama tried to do was undone by Trump.  I would agree neither was the trigger, regeneracy and leading into the crisis heart.  Now, we are almost definitely in the crisis heart, though arguably we won't have a regeneracy until the federal government is implementing the new values.

But I would say the crisis problems are have always been solved, and you cannot do that by trying to pretend the problems do not exist.  I know how we traditionally have had bad presidents clinging to the old values and demonstrating how they don't work any more.  Buchanon, Hoover and Trump are all doing a great job of that.  In a way that is necessary, to prepare the country to move on.

Still you aren't yet convinced.  Between the virus and Trump, enough people will be.  You are stubborn or stupid enough that you may not be among them.

Well, the blue side is busy implementing new values and clinging to old values right now while half the country ( the half of the country that's already set on keeping the old values) is watching and wondering how its going to play out right now. As I recall, the Republican party ended slavery and Jim Crow and it was the Democratic party that fought to keep them both alive.

Except the sides changed, much as they are again today.  Blue collar workers were all-in for Democrats until Reagan.  Now they aren't.  Suburban professionals were all-in for Republicans until Trump.  Now they aren't.  Times change and parties realign.

There are left wingers who advocate abolishing police and prisons. Most on the left disagree. I do too. That is libertarian crap. Once we are well behaved enough, prisons and police won't be needed. That depends on our spiritual evolution. It could take centuries or millennia.