Generational Theory Forum: The Fourth Turning Forum: A message board discussing generations and the Strauss Howe generational theory

(04-16-2020, 02:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-15-2020, 12:29 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a thought exercise.  Society acts to disadvantage a group of people, and it does that over several generations. The disadvantaged group is now much poorer, less healthy and less able to change either of those conditions relative to the majority who weren't disadvantaged.  They got where they are through no fault of their own, or the fault of their forebears either.  What does society owe for the screwing they've gotten?  Would you feel the same if you and yours were in that group?

I don't owe them anything. I didn't screw them. My ancestors won the war that freed them and me parents supported the party that ended Jim Crow. The Democrat party probably owe them something. So, how much of the wealth associated with your social security and medicare and your wife income and retirement do you want us to give them? You're on the side with all the guilt. The black folks on our side don't want it and oppose it.  That's progress.

Actually, the greatest harm started long after the ACW was over.  Much happened in the South (KKK and all that), but the North wasn't blameless.  Let's take redlining as a good example.  If you were not-white, you couldn't get a mortgage in a good neighborhood, and, in most places, no one would sell you a house in one anyway.  So blacks, Latinos and other minorities got pushed into bad neighborhoods and high cost mortgages. Continue this practice for three generations, and you've bled those groups of any assets they may have accumulated.  That was the dominant condition.  Some escaped, but not many.  Whites, on the other hand, got the good deals all along, and made a quantum leap after WW-II with the GI Bill.  Veterans mortgages were unavailable to blacks in almost the entire country.

So yes, you and your forbearers contributed -- knowingly or not --to the mess that exists.

(04-16-2020, 10:09 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Actually, the greatest harm started long after the ACW was over.  Much happened in the South (KKK and all that), but the North wasn't blameless.  Let's take redlining as a good example.  If you were not-white, you couldn't get a mortgage in a good neighborhood, and, in most places, no one would sell you a house in one anyway.  So blacks, Latinos and other minorities got pushed into bad neighborhoods and high cost mortgages. Continue this practice for three generations, and you've bled those groups of any assets they may have accumulated.  That was the dominant condition.  Some escaped, but not many.  Whites, on the other hand, got the good deals all along, and made a quantum leap after WW-II with the GI Bill.  Veterans mortgages were unavailable to blacks in almost the entire country.

So yes, you and your forbearers contributed -- knowingly or not --to the mess that exists.

You don't think life as a slave with no rights at all was worse than life as a black person with rights during Jim Crow or life as a black person that has same rights as everyone else today. Like I said, the Democratic probably has something to feel guilty about since the Democrats were the ones running the show domestically for well over a century ( Pre- Civil War through post Jim Crow). I'm not a Democrat and have never been a Democrat.  Right now, we (the country) have four classes black people like the white people and both races have an underclass too these days. How are you going to win an ideological argument with me/us with so much proof of advancement among blacks these days? So, who is the ideologue and who isn't? You might be guilty and have something to feel guilty about relating it but I don't. I'd say all the races are about the same in that regard.

(04-16-2020, 02:16 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-15-2020, 12:29 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Here's a thought exercise.  Society acts to disadvantage a group of people, and it does that over several generations. The disadvantaged group is now much poorer, less healthy and less able to change either of those conditions relative to the majority who weren't disadvantaged.  They got where they are through no fault of their own, or the fault of their forebears either.  What does society owe for the screwing they've gotten?  Would you feel the same if you and yours were in that group?

I don't owe them anything. I didn't screw them. My ancestors won the war that freed them and me parents supported the party that ended Jim Crow. The Democrat party probably owe them something. So, how much of the wealth associated with your social security and medicare and your wife income and retirement do you want us to give them? You're on the side with all the guilt. The black folks on our side don't want it and oppose it.  That's progress.

The Democratic Party isn't quite the same one of sixty years ago, especially in the South. The agrarian racists have basically gone to the Republican Party.

By the way -- I have just as much claim as you do to glory in the Civil War for freeing the slaves -- none. I had a great-great grandfather who got as far south as Chattanooga and died of measles, one who got as far south as Corinth, Mississippi and got disabled from dysentery, and three brothers of a great-great grandfather who all served in the Civil War and perished in it. That glory is not mine. Those people are in my genealogical files, and I no more own their honor than I own the land that their families owned.

(04-16-2020, 02:45 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-16-2020, 01:48 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I knew that it wasn't accurate the way it was presented. I didn't lie.

You did lie.   The quote from the Constitution is exactly what is said by the Constitution.  Even now you are compounding your lie.

If your ideology tells you something, chances are that it is wrong.  What are you trying to do?  Channel your inner Trump or Fox News?  Shape reality to fit your imaginings?  Much of your ideology tells you what liberals are, and you try to sell it to real liberals.  Do you believe you know them better than they do themselves?  Other parts of your ideology are easily fact checked.  You ought to do so before you are fact checked out of all credibility.

Oh.  Sorry.  Too late.

Let me get this straight. You posted a personal snip it of the preamble and I'm wrong for questioning it and the way you presented it. As far as I know, you are a retiree living off a private pension and social security and already on medicare. Right now, I'm not working and paying in like twenty million others which means the social security trust fund is being significantly drained right now. So, I hope you are living good and feeling well as we are sacrificing for people like you right now.

(04-17-2020, 03:27 AM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]Let me get this straight. You posted a personal snip it of the preamble and I'm wrong for questioning it and the way you presented it. As far as I know, you are a retiree living off a private pension and social security and already on medicare. Right now, I'm not working and paying in like twenty million others which means the social security trust fund is being significantly drained right now. So, I hope you are living good and feeling well as we are sacrificing for people like you right now.

The one mistake is past.  The problem is in how it fits a pattern.  If your ideology tells you something that can be fact checked, you ought to do so to maintain credibility.

And a good part of you ideology becomes slandering and lying about those who disagree with your ideology.  You will lie and slander about people.  You don’t need to.  Part of my philosophy is finding the legitimate reasons an extremist believes as he does.  It is easy enough to listen enough to those you disagree with to find a reason why they hold opposite opinions, why they look at things from another perspective.  If your ideology does not look for these valid reasons, for these different perspectives, it can become full of incorrect demonizations.  If you want to look at why we are a divided country right now, look there.

Of course the illegitimate reasons will still be there.  Elites and bigots will still exist.

I am sitting financially pretty.  I had no expensive hobbies when I was younger, didn’t have to put childen through college, and held onto a good job for a long time.  For a person who thinks with their pocketbook, they should judge me as doing well enough.

Thing is, I don’t think entirely with my pocketbook.  My sister quietly cancelled the traditional Easter family get together.  My fantasy role playing friends quietly by mutual consent canceled the local games.  I used to go to restaurants several times a week, but they are now closed.  Even the opposing lawyers that had been given a demand by a judge are using the Coronavirus as an excuse for withholding the long overdue payment.  I am in the age group where the virus is more of a threat.  I paid my dues all through my younger days, but the coronavirus crisis pretty much turned me into a prisoner.  Sure, I could daydream about being in another generation, or about having other priorities.  As is, we have different problems.  We value different things.

And I can’t help a little bit but resent the selfish and hedonistic way some people are ignoring the isolation precautions.  The more you bypass the precautions, the longer they have to stay in place.  These people care more about themselves than, say, the first responders and medical professionals.  They cling to the Unravelling old ideals rather than shifting with the Trigger.

That’s pretty much where I am right now.

(04-16-2020, 03:24 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-16-2020, 10:09 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]Actually, the greatest harm started long after the ACW was over.  Much happened in the South (KKK and all that), but the North wasn't blameless.  Let's take redlining as a good example.  If you were not-white, you couldn't get a mortgage in a good neighborhood, and, in most places, no one would sell you a house in one anyway.  So blacks, Latinos and other minorities got pushed into bad neighborhoods and high cost mortgages. Continue this practice for three generations, and you've bled those groups of any assets they may have accumulated.  That was the dominant condition.  Some escaped, but not many.  Whites, on the other hand, got the good deals all along, and made a quantum leap after WW-II with the GI Bill.  Veterans mortgages were unavailable to blacks in almost the entire country.

So yes, you and your forbearers contributed -- knowingly or not --to the mess that exists.

You don't think life as a slave with no rights at all was worse than life as a black person with rights during Jim Crow or life as a black person that has same rights as everyone else today. Like I said, the Democratic probably has something to feel guilty about since the Democrats  were the ones running the show domestically for well over a century ( Pre- Civil War through post Jim Crow). I'm not a Democrat and have never been a Democrat.  Right now, we (the country) have four classes black people like the white people and both races have an underclass too these days. How are you going to win an ideological argument with me/us with so much proof of advancement among blacks these days? So, who is the ideologue and who isn't? You might be guilty and have something to feel guilty about relating it but I don't. I'd say all the races are about the same in that regard.

So your counter argument is: things were worse in the distant past, so bad things aren't important today?  And yes, it was the Southern Democrats who made Jim Crow work -- until LBJ.  After that it was the GOP in the South and North, not that party politics has a bearing here.  It was a culture-wide phenomenon, and a lot of people got hurt, just not white people.  It will take along time to rebalance that error, but it's not surprising at all that the people still affected by it are getting antsy.

So saying that there are poor whites doesn't cut it.  Of course there are, but it's the extent of the damage that's the issue.  If 10% of whites are below the poverty line, while it's 25% of the black community, that's a societal hurt that 's been inflicted, not just laziness or bad attitude.  FWIW, I'm good with lifting up everyone.  There will be a lot of need soon, when the COVID-19 Depression ends, and the damage is devastating.

(04-17-2020, 09:53 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]So your counter argument is: things were worse in the distant past, so bad things aren't important today?  And yes, it was the Southern Democrats who made Jim Crow work -- until LBJ.  After that it was the GOP in the South and North, not that party politics has a bearing here.  It was a culture-wide phenomenon, and a lot of people got hurt, just not white people.  It will take along time to rebalance that error, but it's not surprising at all that the people still affected by it are getting antsy.

So saying that there are poor whites doesn't cut it.  Of course there are, but it's the extent of the damage that's the issue.  If 10% of whites are below the poverty line, while it's 25% of the black community, that's a societal hurt that 's been inflicted, not just laziness or bad attitude.  FWIW, I'm good with lifting up everyone.  There will be a lot of need soon, when the COVID-19 Depression ends, and the damage is devastating.

The whites have more people living below the poverty line than the blacks do right now. My point is that there are no more slaves or southern confederates that exist today. We still have some slaves but they're associated with illegal/criminal l activity referred to a illegal human trafficking that's directly associated with illegal immigration. I don't live in the past. You can bring it up and call us racist or meanies for disagreeing, not feeling guilty and not supporting slave retribution these days.

(04-17-2020, 03:09 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-17-2020, 09:53 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]So your counter argument is: things were worse in the distant past, so bad things aren't important today?  And yes, it was the Southern Democrats who made Jim Crow work -- until LBJ.  After that it was the GOP in the South and North, not that party politics has a bearing here.  It was a culture-wide phenomenon, and a lot of people got hurt, just not white people.  It will take along time to rebalance that error, but it's not surprising at all that the people still affected by it are getting antsy.

So saying that there are poor whites doesn't cut it.  Of course there are, but it's the extent of the damage that's the issue.  If 10% of whites are below the poverty line, while it's 25% of the black community, that's a societal hurt that 's been inflicted, not just laziness or bad attitude.  FWIW, I'm good with lifting up everyone.  There will be a lot of need soon, when the COVID-19 Depression ends, and the damage is devastating.

The whites have more people living below the poverty line than the blacks do right now. My point is that there are no more slaves or southern confederates that exist today. We still have some slaves but they're associated with illegal/criminal l activity referred to a illegal human trafficking that's directly associated with illegal immigration. I don't live in the past. You can bring it up and call us racist or meanies for disagreeing, not feeling guilty and not supporting slave retribution these days.

If I take your argument to its extreme, If a town has 10 black families, and 5 of those families are in poverty, they are less tragic than the 8 white families in the same straits, even though there are 2,000 white families.

(04-16-2020, 04:43 PM)pbrower2a Wrote: [ -> ]The Democratic Party isn't quite the same one of sixty years ago, especially in the South. The agrarian racists have basically gone to the Republican Party.

By the way -- I have just as much claim as you do to glory in the Civil War for freeing the slaves -- none. I had a great-great grandfather who got as far south as Chattanooga and died of measles, one who got as far south as Corinth, Mississippi and got disabled from dysentery, and three brothers of a great-great grandfather who all served in the Civil War and perished in it. That glory is not mine. Those people are in my genealogical files, and I no more own their honor than I own the land that their families owned.

How do you know the Democratic racists have gone to the Republican party? The Democratic party has one running the great state of Virginia right now. I wouldn't be surprised if the Democratic leader of the House is actually one too. I doubt that most of them take the time to vote these days myself. I mean neither party represents their primary interests these days. If anything, they probably vote Libertarian these days. Yes, the Republican Party took over in the south after it voted to end Jim Crow along with northern Democrats.

(04-17-2020, 04:24 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-17-2020, 03:09 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-17-2020, 09:53 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]So your counter argument is: things were worse in the distant past, so bad things aren't important today?  And yes, it was the Southern Democrats who made Jim Crow work -- until LBJ.  After that it was the GOP in the South and North, not that party politics has a bearing here.  It was a culture-wide phenomenon, and a lot of people got hurt, just not white people.  It will take along time to rebalance that error, but it's not surprising at all that the people still affected by it are getting antsy.

So saying that there are poor whites doesn't cut it.  Of course there are, but it's the extent of the damage that's the issue.  If 10% of whites are below the poverty line, while it's 25% of the black community, that's a societal hurt that 's been inflicted, not just laziness or bad attitude.  FWIW, I'm good with lifting up everyone.  There will be a lot of need soon, when the COVID-19 Depression ends, and the damage is devastating.

The whites have more people living below the poverty line than the blacks do right now. My point is that there are no more slaves or southern confederates that exist today. We still have some slaves but they're associated with illegal/criminal l activity referred to a illegal human trafficking that's directly associated with illegal immigration. I don't live in the past. You can bring it up and call us racist or meanies for disagreeing, not feeling guilty and not supporting slave retribution these days.

If I take your argument to its extreme, If a town has 10 black families, and 5 of those families are in poverty, they are less tragic than the 8 white families in the same straits, even though there are 2,000 white families.

If a town has 10 black families and 5 black families are in poverty then I'd say that there is a very distinct difference between the black families that live in the town. I'd also say that race/racism isn't the issue in the town since the town has five black families who are making it and living there. What makes the five black ones more tragic/important than the eight white ones who aren't making it these days? Is it slavery or Jim Crow Laws or most likely something else unrelated like a change in preferred lifestyle or addiction or mental health issues or distinct departures from social norms and rejection of social norms. So, do you still think I'm an ideologue and you're not one or a better one at this point? They say that it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. I would say that's hard to do with old ideologues like yourself too.

(04-18-2020, 02:48 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]What would it help being part of a different generation? Just curious. If it is to do with the coronavirus, i am a millennial and have to be careful because i have acute asthma. If it has to do with living your retirement in a crisis, well life sucks for everyone in a different time. I didnt get a great start in life with my youth being spent in this crisis here and now. Then apparently there will be a generation that tries to tear everything apart that we millies will create in the future? No thanks! As said, all generations go through some bs at different times. Gen X probably could say the same so i hear. Lol.

I guess I did pretty good.  I was barely too young to be drafted into the Vietnam war, and young enough to catch the end of the progressive era.  Good jobs were still available.  The Unraveling was where I spent the bulk of my life, which was a time of selfishness and hedonism.  The politics of arguing across the aisle was tedious, getting the conservatives to acknowledge that problems still existed as they determinedly looked the other way.  Still, I watched from a fair distance.  

The crisis was supposed to hit the civic generation.  How was I supposed to know it would be aimed primarily at the prophets?  Medically, I started to fall apart with first a brain tumor that shot my balance and left me handicapped, and now the Coronavirus.  Still, if it is only a year or two I should be able to work though it.  There is just a feeling that I have drifted though my younger times to be isolated now.

According to the books, the Crisis solves a big problem, the new values get reshaped for that problem, we shape things to try to avoid a repeat of the problem, then the nomads put a break on things and build a lot of infrastructure.  That might take the form of starships and fusion reactors?  

But however well the infrastructure might be built, there will be flaws perceived by the next bunch of prophets.  At least, the flaws have always been there before.  Society has never been perfect?  As a prophet, the idea isn’t to tear down what was built, but to see fixed the clearly blatant flaws.  We had draft cards, coat hanger abortions, blacks not served here, glass ceilings and stinky streams.  Next time around, different flaws will be perceived.  

People are disappointed in advance by Biden.  I don’t know how much of the blue agenda he might try to put in in the Crisis.  If he is as wishy washy as is expected, the next prophets are going to be complaining about ecology, warming and population.  I don’t know how that will become your generations fault, but if you are in charge at the time, you’ll get yelled at.

(04-17-2020, 05:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]… And I can’t help a little bit but resent the selfish and hedonistic way some people are ignoring the isolation precautions.  The more you bypass the precautions, the longer they have to stay in place.  These people care more about themselves than, say, the first responders and medical professionals. They cling to the Unravelling old ideals rather than shifting with the Trigger.

That’s pretty much where I am right now.

I share this, but with a caveat. There are many small business people who actively resisted taxation and regulation when it paid them well, and saved little if anything for the proverbial rainy day. Now, they're stuck at home, their businesses closed and their income at $0.00. So they lash out at their fate -- one they fully participated in creating -- and cry for their hero DJT to release the Kraken and bring back prosperity. They firmly believe that this is a hoax, or, if not a hoax, then exaggerated for someone else's benefit. It's irrational, but 40 years of the Kool-Aid takes its tole.

I'm starting to believe that we'll see a sate-by-state experiment in daring the virus to get us. Since all state borders are porous, the rest of us will have to be extra vigilant.

(04-17-2020, 06:12 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-17-2020, 04:24 PM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-17-2020, 03:09 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-17-2020, 09:53 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]So your counter argument is: things were worse in the distant past, so bad things aren't important today?  And yes, it was the Southern Democrats who made Jim Crow work -- until LBJ.  After that it was the GOP in the South and North, not that party politics has a bearing here.  It was a culture-wide phenomenon, and a lot of people got hurt, just not white people.  It will take along time to rebalance that error, but it's not surprising at all that the people still affected by it are getting antsy.

So saying that there are poor whites doesn't cut it.  Of course there are, but it's the extent of the damage that's the issue.  If 10% of whites are below the poverty line, while it's 25% of the black community, that's a societal hurt that 's been inflicted, not just laziness or bad attitude.  FWIW, I'm good with lifting up everyone.  There will be a lot of need soon, when the COVID-19 Depression ends, and the damage is devastating.

The whites have more people living below the poverty line than the blacks do right now. My point is that there are no more slaves or southern confederates that exist today. We still have some slaves but they're associated with illegal/criminal l activity referred to a illegal human trafficking that's directly associated with illegal immigration. I don't live in the past. You can bring it up and call us racist or meanies for disagreeing, not feeling guilty and not supporting slave retribution these days.

If I take your argument to its extreme, If a town has 10 black families, and 5 of those families are in poverty, they are less tragic than the 8 white families in the same straits, even though there are 2,000 white families.

If a town has 10 black families and 5 black families are in poverty then I'd say that there is a very distinct difference between the black families that live in the town. I'd also say that race/racism isn't the issue in the town since the town has five black families who are making it and living there. What makes the five black ones more tragic/important  than the eight white ones who aren't making it these days? Is it slavery or Jim Crow Laws or most likely something else unrelated like a change in preferred lifestyle or addiction or mental health issues or distinct departures from social norms and rejection of social norms. So, do you still think I'm an ideologue and you're not one or a better one at this point? They say that it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. I would say that's hard to do with old ideologues like yourself too.

There are always a few who succeed against all odds -- white, black, gay or straight.  By no means should Arthur Ashe have been able to play world-class tennis when he did. Talent and luck prevailed.  Yet I noticed that you didn't raise the argument that the white families should have made it if the 2,000 others did.  Because there are reasons some fail -- illness being the most common, but getting on the wrong side of someone powerful is pretty common too.  That's been the case of blacks since the introduction of slavery, but that doesn't exempt members of other categories from the same -- even White Anglo-Saxon Protestants.

(04-18-2020, 08:02 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-17-2020, 05:36 AM)Bob Butler 54 Wrote: [ -> ]… And I can’t help a little bit but resent the selfish and hedonistic way some people are ignoring the isolation precautions.  The more you bypass the precautions, the longer they have to stay in place.  These people care more about themselves than, say, the first responders and medical professionals. They cling to the Unravelling old ideals rather than shifting with the Trigger.

That’s pretty much where I am right now.

I share this, but with a caveat.  There are many small business people who actively resisted taxation and regulation when it paid them well, and saved little if anything for the proverbial rainy day.  Now, they're stuck at home, their businesses closed and their income at $0.00.  So they lash out at their fate -- one they fully participated in creating -- and cry for their hero DJT to release the Kraken and bring back prosperity.  They firmly believe that this is a hoax, or, if not a hoax, then exaggerated for someone else's benefit. It's irrational, but 40 years of the Kool-Aid takes its tole.

I'm starting to believe that we'll see a sate-by-state experiment in daring the virus to get us.  Since all state borders are porous, the rest of us will have to be extra vigilant.

Texas first, looks like. At least it is far from me.

(04-17-2020, 03:09 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-17-2020, 09:53 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]So your counter argument is: things were worse in the distant past, so bad things aren't important today?  And yes, it was the Southern Democrats who made Jim Crow work -- until LBJ.  After that it was the GOP in the South and North, not that party politics has a bearing here.  It was a culture-wide phenomenon, and a lot of people got hurt, just not white people.  It will take along time to rebalance that error, but it's not surprising at all that the people still affected by it are getting antsy.

So saying that there are poor whites doesn't cut it.  Of course there are, but it's the extent of the damage that's the issue.  If 10% of whites are below the poverty line, while it's 25% of the black community, that's a societal hurt that 's been inflicted, not just laziness or bad attitude.  FWIW, I'm good with lifting up everyone.  There will be a lot of need soon, when the COVID-19 Depression ends, and the damage is devastating.

The whites have more people living below the poverty line than the blacks do right now. My point is that there are no more slaves or southern confederates that exist today. We still have some slaves but they're associated with illegal/criminal l activity referred to a illegal human trafficking that's directly associated with illegal immigration. I don't live in the past. You can bring it up and call us racist or meanies for disagreeing, not feeling guilty and not supporting slave retribution these days.

Blacks still have more people living in poverty.

The US Census declared that in 2014 14.8% of the general population lived in poverty:[82]

10.1% of all white non-Hispanic persons
12.0% of all Asian persons
23.6% of all Hispanic persons (of any race)
26.2% of all African American persons
28.3% of Native Americans / Alaska Natives
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in.../ethnicity

If whites are getting poorer too, that is the direct result of the Republican policies they have supported. They largely supported them for social-issue reasons, for their religion and their resentment over giving welfare to black people with their taxes. Resentment over immigration has also been stoked recently by Trump. The result has been big breaks for big business, resulting in stagnant income for most of the population, white and people of color alike, while prices have skyrocketed.

The southern confederates still exist, and have become more racist recently. Whites in the South vote for these Republican policies in 80 to 90% margins.  Most of the people today are pretty much wage slaves living paycheck to paycheck, while rich people (and I'm pretty well off myself now) get more and more of the pie, thanks to the low taxes and low wages which your Republican Party has instituted over 40 years.

(04-18-2020, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Blacks still have more people living in poverty.

The US Census declared that in 2014 14.8% of the general population lived in poverty:[82]

10.1% of all white non-Hispanic persons
12.0% of all Asian persons
23.6% of all Hispanic persons (of any race)
26.2% of all African American persons
28.3% of Native Americans / Alaska Natives
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in.../ethnicity

If whites are getting poorer too, that is the direct result of the Republican policies they have supported. They largely supported them for social-issue reasons, for their religion and their resentment over giving welfare to black people with their taxes. Resentment over immigration has also been stoked recently by Trump. The result has been big breaks for big business, resulting in stagnant income for most of the population, white and people of color alike, while prices have skyrocketed.

The southern confederates still exist, and have become more racist recently. Whites in the South vote for these Republican policies in 80 to 90% margins.  Most of the people today are pretty much wage slaves living paycheck to paycheck, while rich people (and I'm pretty well off myself now) get more and more of the pie, thanks to the low taxes and low wages which your Republican Party has instituted over 40 years.

I wonder why they're becoming more racist or deadly for a better term. I suppose you don't think liberals pushing/backing a racist agenda of their own has anything to do with the recent up tick in mass shootings. I can see it as clear as day. Why can't you? Why can't you see that you're guilty of spreading racist views and keeping racism alive. I told you before, I'm going to watch as you're beaten to death and your leadership is strung up before I open up and layout a bunch of no good radicals and begin hunting them down like rabid animals without mercy. You've already admitted to us that logic and reason aren't your strong suit.

(04-18-2020, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-17-2020, 03:09 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-17-2020, 09:53 AM)David Horn Wrote: [ -> ]So your counter argument is: things were worse in the distant past, so bad things aren't important today?  And yes, it was the Southern Democrats who made Jim Crow work -- until LBJ.  After that it was the GOP in the South and North, not that party politics has a bearing here.  It was a culture-wide phenomenon, and a lot of people got hurt, just not white people.  It will take along time to rebalance that error, but it's not surprising at all that the people still affected by it are getting antsy.

So saying that there are poor whites doesn't cut it.  Of course there are, but it's the extent of the damage that's the issue.  If 10% of whites are below the poverty line, while it's 25% of the black community, that's a societal hurt that 's been inflicted, not just laziness or bad attitude.  FWIW, I'm good with lifting up everyone.  There will be a lot of need soon, when the COVID-19 Depression ends, and the damage is devastating.

The whites have more people living below the poverty line than the blacks do right now. My point is that there are no more slaves or southern confederates that exist today. We still have some slaves but they're associated with illegal/criminal l activity referred to a illegal human trafficking that's directly associated with illegal immigration. I don't live in the past. You can bring it up and call us racist or meanies for disagreeing, not feeling guilty and not supporting slave retribution these days.

Blacks still have more people living in poverty.

The US Census declared that in 2014 14.8% of the general population lived in poverty:[82]

10.1% of all white non-Hispanic persons
12.0% of all Asian persons
23.6% of all Hispanic persons (of any race)
26.2% of all African American persons
28.3% of Native Americans / Alaska Natives
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in.../ethnicity

If whites are getting poorer too, that is the direct result of the Republican policies they have supported. They largely supported them for social-issue reasons, for their religion and their resentment over giving welfare to black people with their taxes. Resentment over immigration has also been stoked recently by Trump. The result has been big breaks for big business, resulting in stagnant income for most of the population, white and people of color alike, while prices have skyrocketed.

The southern confederates still exist, and have become more racist recently. Whites in the South vote for these Republican policies in 80 to 90% margins.  Most of the people today are pretty much wage slaves living paycheck to paycheck, while rich people (and I'm pretty well off myself now) get more and more of the pie, thanks to the low taxes and low wages which your Republican Party has instituted over 40 years.

Good point. There are more white people living in poverty than there are any other groups, but as a proportion of themselves, fewer even than Asian-Americans. This is like saying that there are more poor people in Massachusetts than in Mississippi. Massachusetts simply has more people! 

Over the last forty years, real wages have plummeted. Part of this reflects the creation of huge numbers of low-skilled, "throw-way" jobs that are easy to learn, take comparatively little time for getting people up to speed, but pay little and offer no internal chance for advancement. If one isn't born with special advantages in getting the jobs with futures other than more of the same poverty, numbing routine, and harsh management, then this is what one gets. Management cracks the whip. American dream? For more people (both in absolute numbers and proportion) what passes as a career is often a stopgap and nothing more. We get first-world costs, Soviet-style management, and third-world wages. Of course such is great for the elites.  

But things have been getting far better for shareholders, executives, and landlords (the latter, of course, only if they are in the 'high-rent' urban areas such as New York, Boston, Miami, Seattle, and coastal California). But try getting a job in the low-rent communities. 

We are finding out the hard way that certain ways of management will not work. Pushing people to their limits even to the point of expecting people to do hard physical work even when sick has imploded. Need I mention that one of the places where such was mandatory was a pork-processing plant? Maybe we have gotten some incredibly-cheap pork lately because workers could be sweated so badly. 

We have gone as far as we can with an economic model imploding due to its contradictions. If we no longer have scarcity allowing easy profits by meeting it, then we do not need poverty except as chastisement of the imprudent, improvident, incompetent, lazy, rebellious, criminal, and inflexible. Honest work in a prosperous society should pay well. Capitalism at its best rewards imagination, wisdom, competence, skill, dedication, conformity, and integrity. Pre-capitalist orders such as feudalism reward people for being part of the right family; degenerate capitalism (such as crony capitalism as especially appears in fascist regimes)  rewards people for having power and privilege and little else.

(04-18-2020, 04:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]I told you before, I'm going to watch as you're beaten to death and your leadership is strung up before I open up and layout a bunch of no good radicals and begin hunting them down like rabid animals without mercy.

Liar.  You have already admitted that your reports that you are a violent felon are daydreams.  You incite violence online but are all talk.  You have no credibility.

(04-18-2020, 04:49 PM)Classic-Xer Wrote: [ -> ]

(04-18-2020, 02:56 PM)Eric the Green Wrote: [ -> ]Blacks still have more people living in poverty.

The US Census declared that in 2014 14.8% of the general population lived in poverty:[82]

10.1% of all white non-Hispanic persons
12.0% of all Asian persons
23.6% of all Hispanic persons (of any race)
26.2% of all African American persons
28.3% of Native Americans / Alaska Natives
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in.../ethnicity

If whites are getting poorer too, that is the direct result of the Republican policies they have supported. They largely supported them for social-issue reasons, for their religion and their resentment over giving welfare to black people with their taxes. Resentment over immigration has also been stoked recently by Trump. The result has been big breaks for big business, resulting in stagnant income for most of the population, white and people of color alike, while prices have skyrocketed.

The southern confederates still exist, and have become more racist recently. Whites in the South vote for these Republican policies in 80 to 90% margins.  Most of the people today are pretty much wage slaves living paycheck to paycheck, while rich people (and I'm pretty well off myself now) get more and more of the pie, thanks to the low taxes and low wages which your Republican Party has instituted over 40 years.

I wonder why they're becoming more racist or deadly for a better term. I suppose you don't think liberals pushing/backing a racist agenda of their own has anything to do with the recent up tick in mass shootings. I can see it as clear as day. Why can't you? Why can't you see that you're guilty of spreading racist views and keeping racism alive. I told you before, I'm going to watch as you're beaten to death and your leadership is strung up before I open up and layout a bunch of no good radicals and begin hunting them down like rabid animals without mercy. You've already admitted to us that logic and reason aren't your strong suit.

Because neither racism nor free-floating anger has any rational justification, the violence that comes from their combination offers no exculpation. The mass shootings, whatever their cause, ordinarily result in prosecutions for murder or attempted murder. You project in Eric what may be true about you. 

I do not see Eric as an angry or mean-spirited person. He isn't spouting off bigotry. Contempt for Donald Trump? Tens of millions have that in America alone, and his image overseas isn't flattering. Do bad things and exposure becomes infamy. People who admire contemptible behavior are contemptible... Hillary Clinton was right in her assessment of Trump supporters who have treated a 200-year heritage of democracy in contempt as deplorable. 

Your language in this paragraph is stochastic terrorism. Get help! I suggest that you take a time-out from posting here. I would not be surprised that the FNI, BATF, Secret Service, and Minnesota state police have programs to detect language like yours. Yes, this is a rough time. It is lonely, boring, and frustrating. Welcome to the club. I chafe under the distress in a bad living arrangement that gives me no obvious or easy escape even in good times.  I don't want to go into the detail but for all practical purposes my sole contact with the rest of Humanity other than my brother and his girlfriend  is electronic. There's a bad electrical circuit that has cut off the Internet and cable TV for me much of the time. 

The near-lockdown of life during this Crisis (and it really is one) tests anyone with any mental problems, including those that most people can cover at the least with some diversion. Get help! Mental illness is real. I know that others depend upon you as employees and as family members. Do not betray them by doing something stupid. The shame comes from failure to address problems that you have because that failure can bring great tragedy to innocent people. There's much that I find contemptible about our economic system and the power structure that intertwines with it. Maybe I have more awareness of the lessons of history -- that self-righteous blood-letting promotes even more blood-letting. 

Please -- quit posting until you can calm down. Go for a hike in the woods. Go fishing. Try your hand at painting or music. This is a near-lockdown, and not a complete lockdown as in a prison.

(04-19-2020, 10:20 AM)taramarie Wrote: [ -> ]Whoa hey what is your problem? Why do you incite violence in speech? Logic and reason is not shown in those words you just said so practice what you preach and stick to logic and reason without throwing in violence. Violent speech is weak in logic and reason. Keep it up, i will report you.

Are you going to report me for exercising my right to free speech? I dunno, do you think it's okay for our liberal media to continue churning up racism, racial tensions and promoting racist views and associating half the population with racism and calling them racists or fascists every time they get their feelings hurt or don't get their way? Violence is a reality.